[0:00] Good evening. It's good to see you this evening. Let's open up the word and prayer. We'll just get right into this together. Let's pray.
[0:11] Lord, so thankful for this day you give us. Thankful for every opportunity we have to gather together as your people. And Lord, trusting that you're going to speak to us, speak in our hearts, to our hearts and our minds, and Lord, continue to grow and retreat us in the things of Christ.
[0:27] We pray that our time together tonight will be glorifying and honoring to you. Lord, you've got our discussions. You've got our thoughts.
[0:38] Lord, in all things, you would be magnified. Thank you for this church. Thank you for these people. Lord, I thank you for the opportunity we have just to look at the word of God together and to be encouraged and challenged by the message of all in Jesus' name.
[0:52] Amen. All right. I told you guys, we do Q&A tonight. We'll pull out of the seat. I'll stop listening to that again.
[1:03] It kind of makes it a little bit more opportune for us to spend some time together. So we'll just open it up from there, and I'll let you kind of guide and leave where we go.
[1:14] If we can't find the answer together, we'll find it with one another. So here we go. Anybody have a question they want to ask? Open it up. I'm sorry.
[1:26] There, Mr. Robert. No, I'm sorry. I saw you. You asked the hard questions. Let me get warmed up for just a moment, okay? It's okay. I don't have a question. Give me just a moment.
[1:39] And then we'll get warmed up. Okay. I've got to ask questions. I'm going to give you an eight. Yes, ma'am. Okay. So a few times in our study, we've been talking about how David went boldly toward the throne of God and talked to him.
[1:52] How was that possible before Christ? Yeah, good question. How is it possible for David to go boldly before the throne of God? Okay.
[2:04] Good question. Similarities, and I'll try to answer this in the way, hopefully that does biblical justice. When we look at Moses, and this is a discussion that we had around our kitchen table, I think, last night.
[2:22] No, maybe it was this morning. I know it pertains to we're talking about David, but let's talk about Moses. It says that Moses went to the tent of meeting, and he met with the Lord as a man meets face to face.
[2:36] And so that question is difficult because we know that no man has ever seen the face of God. Moses wasn't even allowed to see the face of God because when he asked, he says, show me your glory. Deuteronomy 18, I believe it is.
[2:49] God put him in a cleft of rock and hit him, and he saw the trail of his glory. But it says he met with him face to face. And that word face to face really is the English translation of a Hebrew truth, which means that he met with him in intimate communion.
[3:03] Okay. Now Moses is doing the same thing David is. He's meeting with the Lord God, holy God, before the time of Christ. And we have to understand how is that possible.
[3:19] I believe in David's case, it says the moment he is anointed, that he was filled from that moment on or covered from that moment on with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is called the intercessor for us in the New Testament.
[3:33] So he has the intercessor, but he has him in different capacities. And we do. We are filled, not covered. Filling is an internal reality that means, I believe it's an internal thing that we can't lose.
[3:47] Now, I know we can get an interpretation of that, but that the Holy Spirit dwells within us, brings conviction and all those things and brings us before the throne the same way David was.
[3:59] David was covered. He wasn't filled because the filling came after Christ, but he still had the same intercessory work of the Holy Spirit. There are times when David fails to heed that covering because I don't think he still has, this is my personal opinion, interpretation of it.
[4:15] He doesn't have the internal conviction and working of the Holy Spirit within him, right? So he is more externally driven. But because of his calling and anointing and intercessory work of the Spirit, he is invited to come into the presence of God.
[4:30] Now, they came with sacrifices. They came with the things that were appointed by God. When you have the sin of David, which is the counting of the people when he shouldn't have counted the people, and God gives him the options, you know, do you want to fall into the hands of the enemies?
[4:46] Do you want to fall or do you want to face the wrath of God? He said, let me not fall into the hands of my enemies. Let me fall into the hands of God. And the plague comes and thousands of people die. David knows that he needs to meet with God and bring it to a stop.
[5:01] And you see the angel of the Lord with his sword drawn over the hill, over Jerusalem, right? And that is Temple Mount. At that time, it wasn't.
[5:11] It was the threshing floor of Arunah. And it says that David goes up there and he offers a sacrifice, right? So he's meeting with God through the sacrificial system. There's still blood being spilled. It's just not the blood of Christ.
[5:22] And it's a temporary, God-ordained manner to meet with God. I don't think that he has the same access we do to the throne in Christ because he was going through a shadow.
[5:37] The Bible calls it a shadow of things to come when we are living in the fullness of Christ. So he's going in a manner. So I know in my wording, at times it seems to imply sameness, but there's not sameness.
[5:50] But to the best of God-ordained opportunities, he's still going before God with boldness. We see it in his psalms. We see it in his penitent.
[6:01] But each one of them, if you look at it, you know, he's going with a broken heart. He's going... And I have to ask myself this question. When I look at David's life, he seems to sin similar to other individuals.
[6:18] Why does David seem to have such remorse of his sin that he writes these psalms where the others seem not to, and the only difference would be that covering of the Holy Spirit?
[6:28] Hopefully that answers your question. Anybody have anything to add to that? Yes, ma'am? I was thinking the same thing, and I was going to ask you. But it seems like, and this sounds a little, ooh, way out there.
[6:43] God may show a little bit of faith intention to certain people. Like David, because David did sin. A whole lot of people he killed. Like I think.
[6:54] But he didn't look at David. You said he was covered. Right. And I would, I see where you're coming at with showing favoritism. It does, it's hard to say that. But you also have to understand too the calling and the purposes and the plans of God.
[7:10] God's plan and purpose and his intention was to go through that. It's not saying that he's showing favoritism. It's the same question that I was given not too long ago. Well, why are the Jewish people so special to God?
[7:21] Is God choosing favorites and everybody else or we just kind of second thought? Are we second class citizens? Is it just because of God's favoritism upon the Jewish nation? Does that mean the rest of us don't matter as much?
[7:33] That, I think, even goes down to the individual. I mean, Moses' sin, we know that he paid the consequences of sin not entering the promised land. David's consequences for his sins, we look at his family, his family's in such turmoil, but yet there was a covenant that was established with David.
[7:49] There was a Davidic covenant. We don't read of a covenant with Saul, right? We don't see this covenant with Saul, and the reason we never see God entering into a covenant with Saul was because all the way back, you go all the way back to the end of the book of Genesis, God had decreed and declared that his covenant, that the rulership would go through the tribe of Judah, which David is.
[8:12] So, in showing favoritism, quote, unquote, God is staying true to his purposes, and in those purposes, it is not to pick and choose individuals, even the Jewish nation.
[8:23] It is that the glory and the goodness of God may become evident to the world so that the world would be drawn and attracted to him. That's how I understand it, okay? God appears to show favoritism to the Jewish people, or Abram, calling him out of the land of the Ur of the Chaldeans.
[8:40] He could have called anybody out of the land of the Ur of the Chaldeans. Abram was as much as an idolatrous individual as anyone else, right? So, he calls Abram. Well, what made Abram look better than anybody else?
[8:51] Nothing. The answer to that is nothing, right? It is a gracious choice of God to call Abram, transfer him into Abraham, and to raise up out of Abraham, a descendant of Abraham, that would be a blessing to all nations.
[9:02] It would appear that God is showing favoritism there to Abram, later Abraham, and he's really not. What he's doing is he is giving an avenue to demonstrate his goodness and his mercy to all of the world.
[9:16] I see what you're saying, and I agree. At times, you're like, well, Saul died for that. David doesn't. The sins look the same. The difference, I believe, is David is operating in a covenantal relationship, and that covenant, remember, all the covenants of Scripture, they were originated by God.
[9:35] They were ordained through God. They are really, every, the Old Testament covenants, if you read them, they are conditioned upon God and not upon man's faithfulness.
[9:47] Right? There's only one covenant that is, you would say, has the if statement in it, and that would be the covenant of Mount Sinai, that I will be your God and you will be my people if you obey my voice.
[10:01] You don't find that in what we call the Edemic covenant, the covenant made with Adam. You don't find it in the covenant with Noah. You don't find it in the Abrahamic covenant. You don't find it in the Davidic covenant.
[10:13] Every one of those conditions are based upon God's faithfulness, not man's faithfulness. So God will stay true to his declared word. Anyone else on that one?
[10:25] From the beginning, the whole Bible points to Jesus from Genesis 1 to the end of Revelation.
[10:38] And I've come to really like Job. Chapter 19, I know that my Redeemer lives. He knew that in his flesh he would see Job.
[10:51] He would be resurrected. He knew they were all looking forward to the Messiah, the Redeemer, where we are at. So we have the privilege of knowing everything that they just were looking forward to.
[11:08] As far as meeting with God, of course, they had the, they would go through the sacrificial system, but it was always through faith and always through prayer. And they knew the Redeemer was coming from Genesis 3 when they talk about the seed and the crushing the head of the snake and all that.
[11:28] They knew that there was a Redeemer coming. How did Job know that his Redeemer was coming? How did he know that in his flesh he was, he knew he was going to die and go back to dust, but he knew in his flesh he would see his Redeemer.
[11:43] It's just amazing. What, I look forward to seeing Job. How did you know that? Right. How did you know that? What revelation was that? And especially when you understand that Job's the oldest book in Scripture.
[12:03] I know you say, well, now Genesis is in the beginning, right? But in writing, Scripture writing, Job's the oldest book. And yet he speaks. Not only he says, I know that I'll see my Redeemer, but he says, I'll see him in the land of the living.
[12:15] Like you said, he had this hope of the resurrection. The book of Hebrews, Hebrews chapter 11, the heroes of the faith, you know, it says that these all perished with an expectation looking for a city whose builders and its foundations were laid not by man, but by God.
[12:30] They were pressing on by faith, looking to what was to come. And I appreciate how you said that, brother. We live in faith of what we have already seen, but looking forward into what was to come.
[12:42] Yeah. Yeah. Anyone that had the faith, and we know that David loved the Lord, because God would love his heart so mighty and strength.
[12:53] And because of his faith and his commitment, I thank God that he believed with anyone. And of course, that's why it didn't be Saul, because obviously Saul went to a sorcerer instead of going to the Lord for him.
[13:05] He didn't know what to do. Awesome. Any words? Yes, sir? Okay.
[13:16] Okay, great. All right. Here we go. We're changing questions. Okay. I was reading it when I was doing what the Bible said this morning, and I can't remember where it was, because it kind of jumbled.
[13:31] My friend gets kind of jumbled where it is. But it was the concubine that got chopped up in 12 pieces. Right. And the book of Judges. Okay, okay. That's what I thought, because that's what I was looking at, but I used a different Bible at home.
[13:44] And I don't know, I can't remember why they did that. Judges chapter 20, right? It wasn't her fault. Right. I mean, I just couldn't figure out why they did it.
[13:56] Well, there's a phrase, and I would love to have anybody jump in here with me on this one. Judges 17 starts to transition, and there's a phrase repeated five times at the end of the book of Judges that answers that question.
[14:08] In those days, there was no king in the land of Israel, and every man did what was right in his own eyes. Right. Which I think defines 17 to 21. In Judges 19, you find the concubine being ravished by the men of Gebeah, and there's definitely not her fault.
[14:26] I mean, he, her husband, should not have put her out there, but he did. there's so much failure by the men involved, even the man whose house that he's staying at.
[14:38] But every man is doing what is right in his own eyes, right, because there's no king in the land. He should not have delayed in his leaving. He should not have delayed in his partying. But yet, we find, next morning, he gets up and his concubine's dead.
[14:52] He puts her on the horse and takes her home, or puts her on the donkey and takes her home. And then he cuts her up and sends her throughout the land, which is just hideous when we read it and even when we understand it.
[15:03] And the only understanding that I can have for all that is that there's no king in the land. Every man did what was right in his own eyes. And when you look at this, what's most disturbing to me is that you have a man who is supposed to be a representative of God.
[15:20] You have a man who is, I guess you're looking at 19, it's 19, 19 and 20. is what you're looking at. There was a Levite who was staying somewhere.
[15:36] And the Levites sojourning around is a problem. It says in 19 that there was a Levite staying in a rope part of the hill country of Ephraim who took a concubine for himself from Bethlehem in Judah.
[15:47] She leaves and goes back to her dad's house, which is a sign that he probably wasn't doing right. But we find this problem at the end that the Levites are just kind of moving around from place to place and never were supposed to do that.
[15:57] They're supposed to stay in Levitical cities and the reason they're supposed to stay in Levitical cities is their job was to instruct and teach the people of God, the word of God or the things of God. So the fact that the Levites are moving around means that the Levites have been neglected and they haven't been taken care of because they had no inheritance, right?
[16:13] So they're just roaming looking for work. And the reason is there's no king in the land. Remember, to this time they are a theophany.
[16:23] God was to be their king. And so when you say there's no king in the land, what they're saying is that no one's recognizing the true king, the rulership. There's no desire for the word of God because you see the Levites going from place to place.
[16:37] And then we see this Levite who was supposed to be an instructor of the things of God doing some of the most hideous things. You know, he delays in his departure from his father-in-law's house.
[16:47] He stays longer than he should have. That hospitality was supposed to be practiced among the Benjamites. They were not. All these things just really wicked, wicked, wicked. And it's just there to show us.
[16:59] And I know when we even as far as the sin and our pieces throughout the nation, so hideous. But it's just a dark and morbid reminder of what happens when a man does what is right in his own eyes.
[17:14] That's how I understand it. Do it. Of course, I mean, 12 different places. I mean, there was no postal service. Yeah. I had to be my current.
[17:25] I don't really want to know exactly how because it's very disturbing. Yeah. And then, you know, you look at the reality that a civil war breaks out and all the 600 of the Benjamites are slain and then they reach this kind of partial deal where they steal wives and go find wives and then the first king that they appoint is from the tribe of Benjamin.
[17:53] Saul, the son of Kish. Yes. I have this question.
[18:10] Romans 13, so we're supposed to be subject to the devil. Was the American Revolution biblical? Good question.
[18:23] You know, John, it actually wasn't. Never. That's what they think about that. And there were preachers who were preaching no king but Jesus.
[18:38] No king but king Jesus. That was kind of their rally. They would preach sermons. Right. Well, the departure from England was over that religious persecution initially because of their lack of freedom to worship anything apart from the Church of England or the state ordained church.
[19:01] The way they separated from that state church was because they wouldn't follow those kings. They wouldn't swear allegiance kind of like the Romans. you know. And I guess I understand where John MacArthur is coming with that.
[19:15] According to that passage of the American Revolution biblical, I would say no. But also Paul is writing this from the prison in Rome. Well, he's writing this before he goes to the prison in Rome.
[19:27] He ends up imprisoned in Rome. Many believers in biblical times end up imprisoned and dying in the hands of Rome. And many of them because they will not proclaim that Caesar is Lord.
[19:38] So how do you balance that? And balancing I think is sure you want to be subject to the government but I always think this is just my personal opinion and I'll be willing to listen to it all.
[19:53] And we'll ask our history major sitting behind you if you want to. That be subject to the government until the government crosses the line and begins to demand greater allegiance than the Lord Jesus.
[20:08] And I think that you have to have this primary allegiance to the Lord Jesus Christ when the government begins to demand a greater allegiance of you than your allegiance to Christ that becomes grounds for separation.
[20:21] We see it happen in the early church. We see it happen even today in the current church. But even then the early church, now that doesn't go to the extent of the American Revolution because they rose up to fought a battle whereas the early church just resisted and ended up facing their persecution.
[20:36] separation. So it's a question to be pondered. Anybody want to add to that one with me? more of the spiritual and biblical issues which is some of those seem clear.
[20:52] The taxation and the impressment of our needy, our enable, and sailors and all those different issues I guess.
[21:04] You can go straight to the spiritual part. Right. That's how I like this. You're trading on dangerous, I don't want to say dangerous but in my interpretation of that I tend to overlook the fact that sometimes religion was used in this excuse to call up arms.
[21:27] For non-spiritual reasons or non- what I would call legitimate reasons before the Lord is used as a springboard to call of arms and just to revolt.
[21:42] And then you are not walking in this spirit of being subject to the government and all things because you're going to pray for your leaders. I mean Paul wrote this. Paul ends up dying at the hands of the same government that he's writing about.
[21:55] He didn't call up arms against them. I understand in our own country. This is why I'm always very cautious and very careful to have a God and country word worship service.
[22:08] I don't want anybody to ever go so far as to say that I'm condemning churches that do because I don't think you need to worship your country as much as you worship God. You need to balance that. You know your allegiance and your commitment is to Christ.
[22:21] You're blessed to be living in the country in which you're living in and you thank him for that. But your greater allegiance goes to Christ. It's careful.
[22:33] Careful ground because I can't take it to the extent of abstinence from all military exercise.
[22:44] Oh well because I'm just going to like the Mennonites would. I don't know. You want to add to that son? He says hope. I know you've been to those history classes.
[23:01] I'm reading them as much as I can but yeah I mean I get currently reading you know the foundation of the church in England and America at that time and it's it's cumbersome but I see how it led to the genuine concern of bringing up arms.
[23:21] But if you take a literal interpretation of the text then I would say that was non-biblical according to Romans 13. But you've got to also understand that on the other side of the pond so to say they view the American Revolution totally different than we do here in America.
[23:42] And rightfully so. they went the king of England heard that George Washington had laid down his sword and given it to Congress they said the king said he could be king of any nation.
[24:06] He was blown away by that. And in a way that's almost a picture of Christ who laid down his life for us.
[24:18] George Washington was God in the name. Is that right? So I don't know. Yes ma'am.
[24:30] In Matthew 19 I have a question about the comment Jesus makes about divorce and how he says that God permitted it as a concession to men as our cards.
[24:44] Why would he do that just because man is sinful and if he made a concession in that area what we need is to make a concession for all men.
[24:57] Great question. Good question. Is it right for a man to divorce his wife and all this other?
[25:08] Jesus goes back to the law first mentioned that the man and his wife will be joined together and two shall become one and they should never be separated. He said but what about Moses and their certificate of divorce?
[25:20] Jesus said because of the sinfulness of man's heart, God gave you this. Good question as to why God chose that one, I don't know. Just be straightforward with you.
[25:35] But I know what Christ is doing here because the leaders, the religious leaders of the day were appealing to Moses and the law. Not everything in the law we can take all the way back to Genesis.
[25:49] There are some things that, like the sun dry laws, the food laws, the things that make you impure, ceremonial, the ceremonial laws, those things don't find a biblical root earlier than their first mention.
[26:11] But when it came to divorce, there was an earlier mention of the intended purpose of marriage. marriage. So in the law, Moses had issued a divine decree by God that a man could divorce his wife, given a certificate of divorce.
[26:29] But that doesn't bring it to its fullness because Jesus took it before that. That wasn't the first time marriage was mentioned. First time marriage is mentioned in the book of Genesis.
[26:40] So Jesus goes back to what we call in biblical interpretation, the law of first mention. Because if you want to see the intended purpose of marriage, you go, or the intended purpose of anything, you go to the law first mentioned.
[26:50] Where was it first mentioned at? So Jesus shows the full intended purpose of marriage, but what the law does is it highlights even man's inability to fulfill the full purposes of God because of sin.
[27:06] Why God granted a concession on that, as opposed to other things, I can't answer. But I do know that Jesus was taking it. what they were pointing to as the end, we can divorce because Moses said we can.
[27:20] He was saying, well, there's one before Moses who said that marriage is supposed to be eternal, or not eternal, but for life, that man shall not be separated from his wife.
[27:31] You can't say that about is this food right to eat or not, because the first time they're mentioned is when Moses gave the law, or even the sacrificial system, the first time they're mentioned is when Moses gave the law.
[27:44] But there were some things in there that go all the way back to that. If I want to jump in there and help me on that, go ahead. Yes.
[27:55] I have more a bloody water. If the Bible starts with the law first mentioned in Adam and Eve's marriage, and it ends with the marriage of Jesus and the church, right? It's kind of bookends of marriage.
[28:08] But all throughout, especially the Old Testament, there's so much polygamy. How is that okay? And we see, I know it's not okay, but why is it not directly called out in Scripture? We see what happens in the results of it, like Solomon and David and the mess it creates.
[28:23] But we don't, even with good kings like David and Hezekiah, they're not called out for their multiple lives. And that's the question that's the question that's going to be asking me that I've had in reading Scripture, is why are these things allowed to continue?
[28:38] And I don't know, what I do know is historically, by the time Christ came, polygamy wasn't practiced on the level that it was especially in the Old Testament.
[28:49] Now it was among the Roman people, it was among Gentiles and Greeks and non-Jewish, but among the Jewish people, you don't see the polygamy. There are some things that happened in Babylonian captivity that I believe was God's judgment for their twisting of their calling.
[29:08] Babylonian captivity was so much more than just 70 years or 70 plus years in Babylon. We can say just reading Scripture, the Jewish people went into Babylon very polytheistic, worshipping many gods.
[29:22] They came out of Babylon, the most monotheistic people that's ever lived on the face of the earth. They went into Babylon very polygamist. They came out of Babylon, it seems to be very non-polygamist, their own wives.
[29:35] They went into Babylon with all these number of things. They came out, but now we grant it, it's the remnant that we find coming back. and I think what we have in the Babylonian captivity is God dealing with the sins of his people, of them not adhering to his standards, not adhering, I think his patience endured to the point that he finally dealt with it, and that's the Babylonian captivity.
[29:59] I use that parallel, hopefully rightfully so in Scripture, to see that that's when the church is raptured, the tribulation is kind of that Babylonian captivity.
[30:10] it is God dealing with the sins of his people, the Jewish nation, because it is in that tribulation period that we see in the book of Revelations where multitudes of the Jewish people, that's 144,000 people coming out of the Jewish nation.
[30:24] Sure, there are other people coming, but I think he's specifically in the tribulation period dealing with the sins of his people, the Jewish nation, which I think is why the church is already raptured. Pre-tribulation is because this is God dealing with them.
[30:38] We never had those standards given to us as not Jews. And the reason I don't think the church goes to the tribulation is because that would be kind of double payment for our sin.
[30:51] If that's what tribulation period is, is God's judgment upon the sin of man, that's double jeopardy, the law double jeopardy, and our sins have already been paid in full in Christ. I mean, I don't know why those things were permitted, but I can see in scripture where it seems where God addressed them even though we don't have it clearly spelled out.
[31:10] This is why it's addressing. I do know that the prophets that he sent after the Babylonian captivity, I do know you take like Nehemiah and Ezra, they're pulling the hair out of people's head. And a lot of it's because of their multiple wives.
[31:22] intermarriage and intermarriage and relations. You have them to divorce and separate from them. Right. They said they weren't in the debt and all this other stuff.
[31:33] Well, the question here too, they're trying to trap Jesus in his words because the pharisaical view was that you could just divorce your wife, Hendricks. She didn't cook your favorite food device, you could divorce her, that kind of thing.
[31:47] Where do you understand the other view of the more strict view of it? And so they were trying to trap him in his words so he would also be in trouble with Harry because that's why John the Baptist lost his head.
[32:02] So they thought they were tracking his words and had his head cut off. Sooner then he was supposed to die. But they the question I think of the divorce my understanding in the original allowing of divorce was if you were married and you found that your virgin was a virgin then that was the moment that you could divorce.
[32:29] It wasn't an ongoing thing like it had come. And as you said the church is the bride of Christ and of course Ephesians 5 gives us the best illustration scares me to death because I know that I'm to love Lisa like Christ loves the church and it's my responsibility to give Lisa every opportunity to grow and do everything that God has planned for her.
[33:00] And it's my responsibility. You go back to the great commandment which starts all of this with the 19th chapter and it's to love the Lord and God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength.
[33:13] If I love God with all my heart, soul, mind, strength, I will love Lisa as I'm supposed to. There will be no call for divorce if I would love God as I'm supposed to.
[33:28] In the Christian life, I see that if we know God and we're loving Him, there's no room for divorce even in the church.
[33:39] If we do what we're supposed to, loving God in our faith, it's going to increase life. And so then you realize that God has knit you together. You know, Lisa just had surgery.
[33:52] We're knit together. A part of me had surgery. You know, it's personal. It's, we're together. It's, it goes, it goes from that question of why did divorce most, divorce even allowed to the beautiful picture that God had for us in marriage and what it's supposed to be like.
[34:14] And especially now in the church, because the church is a bride of Christ. Like I read Ephesians chapter 5, and I'm like, wow, that's, I need help, Lord. I think you and I talked about that over lunch one day.
[34:27] Yeah. I did Ephesians 5. It's great. It's scary. It's great. It's scary. Thank you, brother. Anyone else? Yes, ma'am.
[34:39] Well, I know that the church is a bride of Christ, and they assume to be covered by his blood. I mean, why would he want his wife to get beat up before he marries her anyway?
[34:53] I mean, you know what I mean? Because she's covered. She's covered, but, you know, it's like, I mean, we still mess up.
[35:04] We still have the same nature. But I think, okay, where's bride? Why is going to let his wife get beat up before he marries her? I mean, that's just my thinking. That's why he's not going to do that.
[35:18] Do you mean by allowing the bride to stay here in the flesh, or help me understand that? No, I mean, be with him, but he could, I mean, he could, because we're still in the flesh.
[35:35] I mean, he could still do something, but because it's all covered, he can't anymore. But I just thought, I don't know, I don't know if that made you said, probably didn't.
[35:48] Well, I don't know. And I think it goes back to what my brother was just saying on Ephesians 5, it says that, you know, to cleanse her, like, Christ is cleansing the church. You know, sometimes our getting beat up is our own result, sometimes it's not.
[36:01] And it's a sanctifying process. that bride and all of her beauty and spot, you know, spotless beauty and her perfection is the end result of the sanctification process.
[36:15] Anyone else? Any other questions? Don't leave me hanging here. Go ahead, Hunter. So, I've been doing a study over Romans right now, and last week I did Romans chapter 7, and ending up on verses 14 to 25 talks about Paul, it kind of drips off, it kind of goes to talk about simple nature, and it kind of says, you know, why don't do the things I do?
[36:43] And it kind of sounds like he's not taking responsibility, like saying it is the sin that dwells in him. And I kind of just was wondering about, because I kind of made me question, like, is it our responsibility, like, is it our sin, or is it just because it's sin in us, do we do it?
[37:00] Or do we do it because we like it? Like, I don't know how to work that kind of it. Just reading that that's kind of maybe question our flesh, I guess. Okay, right.
[37:12] And there's a lot of discussion in Romans 7, is Paul speaking about things pre-Christ or is he speaking about things that are ongoing after Christ. And there's a lot of differing biblical interpretations.
[37:24] Some interpreters will tell you he's referring to his walk before Christ because he answers that question on who would deliver me from this wretched man and I am. Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[37:37] On verse 25, so then on one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God but on the other with my flesh the law of sin. And I see it seems to be this wrestling.
[37:49] I believe here what we see is kind of a two fold. Paul is speaking of who he was before Christ but also speaking to the reality of the sanctification process of what's happening after Christ.
[38:01] The moment we're saved that sin nature doesn't just disappear. Because all things are made new. But even Paul would say I'm not yet what I should be but I'm pressing on to what I ought to be.
[38:16] I'm pressing on to the fullness of Christ. And what Paul is acknowledging here in this, I don't think he's discounting and saying I don't have any responsibility for this.
[38:28] I don't think he's doing that at all. Paul is driving home the point in Romans, the first eight chapters of Romans are really just driving home the point that we sin because that's who we are.
[38:43] That sin is natural to us. It is a natural result of our sin nature. And until we know our sin nature we're not just saying well I'm choosing to do bad things.
[38:54] No, we are sinners by nature. God is even alluding to the reality that even when he came to the knowledge of who Christ is and what he has done internally and mentally he knew what was right but he finds this battle going on within him.
[39:12] This war that seems to be waging. Paul spoke of the reality that when he knew the law all the law did was leading to sin because he didn't know how to covet until the law said you shouldn't covet.
[39:23] And he said oh I think I'm going to covet it now. You know that the law highlighted his sins rather than removing his sin. And then he comes back to this reality here that even knowing Christ and understanding Christ doesn't necessarily remove this natural person that I am that I still desperately need a savior.
[39:43] There's still this battle going on within me that I can't say okay well I got that done now I'm okay. That's not discounting it. That's admitting one's nature that is in such desperate need of a savior.
[39:57] Which leads us to Romans 8 that we realize that therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Because Paul is declaring and decreeing that even though the nature is present within him it doesn't give him a right to go out and do whatever he wants to do.
[40:15] He needs to lean upon his savior. He needs to lean upon Christ. He needs him more each and every day. And I try to say it like this. It's not a matter of did I accept Christ back then and did I say this prayer back then and was this something to happen in the past.
[40:31] Listen I need a savior as much today as I ever did 20 years ago. 20 plus years ago. And we see in scripture salvation is spoken of in all three tenses.
[40:42] It's something that we were saved, we are saved, and we are being saved. Because we are not yet complete, we are not full. There's still this battlefield of sin because, now, you get into biblical interpretation, Galatians 5 and 6.
[41:01] Does God really remove when he makes all things new? Is the sin nature gone? Can you literally live sin free?
[41:13] I don't see that in scripture. Some people will say it is, it's gone. It's completely, when all things are made new, all things are new. Your heart of flesh, I mean, your heart of flesh, I think Paul answers that here.
[41:27] He says, listen, I know who my redeemer is, I know there's no condemnation, but man, I need him. And he goes into Romans 8, I don't even know how to pray sometimes and the spirit intercedes. And then he gets into all this, who can take me out of the hand of God, you know?
[41:42] And he's admitting his own weaknesses and he's acknowledging those things, but in that acknowledgement he's not discounting, oh, well that's just the flesh. No, he is reminding himself that until he is perfect, he needs a savior each and every day.
[41:58] And he's not reminding himself that, but he's reminding his readers. You know, it's not just a one-time past event. And we see it, I mean, we see it in churches, right?
[42:09] People that are walking in salvific experiences 10, 20, 30 years ago, but it really hasn't changed today. And it's not, and they're going, they can point back to what they did then, but they're not really pointing to what they're doing now, or their need for Christ now.
[42:31] Paul was walking in such communion and relationship with the Lord. He said, I understand this, the knowledge, I know what I should do, but I have found within me, man, I mean, within me, I know there's something about me, and I try to be calm, cool, collected, but I try to be, I know, I know things up here, and I know that anger leads to sin, but I also know within me, around the right people, at the right time, at any given moment, I can lose my temper.
[43:02] And that's sinful. And I need the Savior to redeem me from that. And I need to lean upon him for that. And I need to acknowledge that.
[43:14] You know, that's not an excuse for me to go, oh, but that's just who I am. That's just what happens. No. You know, but when I do fail, thanks be to God through Jesus Christ my Savior, and there's no condemnation.
[43:28] I need to hear that no condemnation. Because we're going to fail. Until the other side of glory, we're going to fail. We need Romans 8, 1, therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ.
[43:43] You say, well, if you were in Christ, then you wouldn't do that. Go back a few verses. Paul's in Christ. He says, I have found within my nature that I absolutely could do every bit of that. But the security that comes from knowing Jesus Christ is greater than the seed of sin that I found within me, and I'm wrestling against that.
[44:01] And he builds upon that in the eighth chapter and speaks about being in the hand of the God. You know, what can take us out of the hand of God? You know, he says in verse 31 of the eighth chapter, what then shall we say these things?
[44:12] If God is for us, who is against us? Who did not spare his own son but delivered him over for us all? How will he not also with him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God's elect?
[44:24] God is the one who justifies. Who is the one who condemns? Now, I believe in asking these questions. He's even asking us ourselves. You know, I cannot pronounce condemnation on myself because I did not save myself.
[44:36] You know, who will bring a charge? I cannot charge. Well, I must not. Christ Jesus, he who died, yes, rather he who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ?
[44:47] Will tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword? Just it is written, for your sake we are being put to death all day long. We were considered a sheep to be slaughtered.
[44:58] And I have this word underlined in mind. It's that too little word, but in, I underlined that in because he doesn't remove all those things. It goes back to seeing the bride being beat up. But in all these things we're overwhelmingly conquered through him who loved us.
[45:12] Paul is reminding us of the security we have in Christ even in light of the weakness we find within ourselves. And that's, you know, we could pull that passage in Romans 7 and say, well, see, Paul says that you just can't help it.
[45:26] That's just who you are. Well, yeah, that is. So because that's who you are, you know what? You need to read the eighth chapter and see who he is. Because this is who we are.
[45:38] We're sinful individuals with a sin nature that is not yet fully redeemed. We are being sanctified. Good question, though.
[45:51] And I don't think that the Galatians 5 and 6 principle that, and there are some very strong biblical interpreters and very strong expositors of the word that I don't think that in Galatians 5 and 6 and following that that that means that we're completely made new and that we will never sin again.
[46:09] You know, that the ability to sin is removed from us. I don't think that. Because why else would we be admonished to be filled with the Holy Spirit? It means to continuously be filled up.
[46:19] I like D.O. Moody's answer to that. He says, I need to continuously be filled up because I have holes and I leak. Right? Any other question?
[46:34] I have a question. Okay. Somebody mentioned this to me the other week. He said, in the Garden of Eden, if Satan was the one who tempted Adam to eat, why was the serpent cursed?
[46:48] And that exists. Good question. I've read that one before. It's been a long time. So why the snake, right?
[47:00] Why is the snake and even, you know, we could say, well, the word serpent there, he's referring to Satan. The short answer I can give you is because that's the avenue and the opportunity that Satan found to use to tempt man.
[47:15] And I say that because we do have to say that it seems to apply literally to that animal because even in the book of Isaiah where it says the lion and the lamb will lay down together. And the only animal that never seems to be redeemed is the serpent.
[47:27] It says a child will reach his hand into a cobra's pit and be bitten but will not die from it. He's redeemed but it seems we always find the serpent on the belly. He never finds redemption as far as in the animal kingdom goes.
[47:37] And I just think the way I have to read that is, and I'm going to open this up for anybody else who wants to say something to it. It is the condemnation of the one that allowed the vehicle Satan used to tempt man.
[47:56] And God brings condemnation upon that vehicle. We see it even in Judas Iscariot. It says he was filled with Satan.
[48:07] You know, Satan used him. His end was tragic, condemned. I like to pose the question to myself. All the disciples and apostles fled.
[48:20] Every one of them neglected Christ. Every one of them abandoned him. Peter denied him. Peter repented with mourning and weeping and found restoration.
[48:33] I ask myself, was that same opportunity available to Judas Iscariot? Could he have been restored? I don't think so because of the same reason the serpent, he presented himself as a tool to be used by Satan.
[48:51] Therefore, he, by presenting himself to be used by the enemy, brought himself to the point of no return for lack of a better way of saying it.
[49:05] Anybody else want to add to why the serpent? serpent? Okay. It's the serpent that was put on the pole. The brazen serpent.
[49:16] The bronze serpent. Why there seemed to be a good symbol? It seemed to be a good symbol, right? Because they got healing by looking on it, right?
[49:29] Right. And so, so the serpent on the bronze pole, which is on the side of every one of your ambulances now, the EMTs and paramedics is the same symbol. They were being bitten by the snakes, so Moses was commanded to put a bronze serpent on the pole and raise it.
[49:46] So, really, the cause of their problem was also represented for the restoration. So, the problem was the serpents and restoration was found in looking upon this lifted up.
[50:01] Now, Jesus says, as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, so too must the Son of Man be lifted up. A lot of people look for that, by the way, and nobody's ever been able to find that, archaeologically speaking.
[50:13] Most historians realize that it was probably destroyed because the nation of Israel began to worship it. It began to not fulfill its purpose anymore.
[50:24] It became an idolatrous form of worship instead of what God was showing there. So, since the serpents were the cause of the problem, it also became a solution to the problem.
[50:37] Now, if you take that picture to its fulfillment, the cause of man's problem is man. And the solution to man's problem was the Son of Man who was raised up above the earth because we are the cause of our problem.
[50:51] And so, we didn't need an animal sacrifice. We didn't need what had to be lifted up was man. But it had to be a perfect man.
[51:02] Right? And what astounds me in reading that passage is when there were people, because it says in the text there that as many as looked upon the serpent lived, which seems to imply that there were those who did not look upon the serpent.
[51:17] So, there were people being bit by snakes, but they didn't, going back to what our brother was talking about earlier, they didn't have the faith to look at the serpent and expect healing. So, they just said, man, I got bit by a snake.
[51:29] I need to take care of this. Man, this snake has caused this problem. I better bandage my wound up. Man, I need to get the poison out of it. And the whole time, God said, well, if you'll just look at the serpent that's raised up, you'll be healed. And man had a problem.
[51:39] The problem was a snake and the problem bit him and the problem was going to kill him. But as many as looked up lived, but there were some who could have looked up but died but never did. Man's problem is man.
[51:52] God came in the flesh as mankind was raised up among us and whoever looks upon Christ shall be saved, but there are many people who are still trying to fix man's problem in their own abilities.
[52:03] Man, I got a problem I need to take care of. It's like being bit by a snake but not being willing to look up. They wouldn't look up. There are men that won't look up at the Savior. That answer?
[52:20] But it was never intended to be the end game. It was pointing to. And I think it goes, I thank you every minute passage, you know, that's why Christ refers to, I understand any time that Christ refers to a portion, anybody in the New Testament refers to any portion of Scripture when they refer to one verse they're actually culturally they would be referring to everything around that passage.
[52:49] So it just understood that when Jesus was referring to the serpent that they would say, okay, well, so everything that surrounds that story, everything about it. And I think you have that fulfillment that as many as looked upon the serpent lift.
[53:02] A lot of people who were bit, I think, that did not look because they didn't have faith to look and they died. there are a lot of people who were bit by the problem of humanity and that is man and they won't look up on the Savior and they die.
[53:15] That's a full picture. Any other questions? Any other question?
[53:29] Okay. It's not easy. Go ahead. It's funny about the cherubim. They're described in Uri's ways, but they're still speaking about cherubim.
[53:40] You know, one, they have the four faces and another only mentions two of the faces. You know, do you think it's just some kind of heavenly creature that God has allowed that we can't understand with our finite minds that could be presented in different ways?
[53:55] I think you're right. I think just like we see much in the book of Revelations, when we get into the prophetic books in the Old Testament, especially those prophets that are seeing visions of heaven, they can only describe it in terms that would relate to their readers.
[54:10] And I think they're seeing heavenly beings in the best way that they know how to describe it. It's a face like unto a man and a face like unto a bear. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a man's face or a bear's face.
[54:21] I mean, when I read the book of Revelations, there are some people who are literalists, to think that giant scorpions with fire coming out of their tails are going to, but what John is seeing on the Isle of Patmos, he's trying to relay it back to his readers.
[54:36] You know, so what is this horse with fire coming out of its mouth? I don't think literally we're going to see horses running with fire coming out of its mouth. And I've heard other people say, well, can you imagine John on the island of Patmos getting a vision of a tank or a helicopter and trying to describe what that looks like to people in first century Roman colonies?
[54:58] I think that's exactly what we find with Isaiah and Ezekiel in the Old Testament and anybody that's around the throne room of heaven. I mean, I can't imagine what they saw. And then you're trying to portray that to people in captivity, to the common man.
[55:16] You're seeing this, I mean, the wheels with eyes in it and spinning around and where the wheels go and as the wheels raise up and then the angels raise up and you have this great expanse underneath.
[55:28] And you read all those things and my mind gets blown. But it appealed to this original audience and gave them at least a perception of what glory was looking like.
[55:39] And understanding the wonder and the splendor and I think part of that mystery is there to show it's so much further above than what we can imagine. A little thing that we find even in studying like what we read this morning, one thing we find in heaven is every time the cherubim or seraphim or the heavenly beings are described in the Old Testament is they all cover their heads because they're in the presence of the Lord.
[56:09] And they're in the right position with their faces covered with wings. They're flying with wings. They're moving with wings. They're covering their faces. They're covering, showing that he's the head and we're not.
[56:22] And that's as the angels look into and they can't understand. I think that's, yes. Who are the heavenly hosts? I think the heavenly hosts, what are we talking about?
[56:36] In the Old Testament or New Testament? I think the Old Testament. Old Testament, I believe, are the myriads or myriads of angels. They're just there until the beginning of God. You get into Hebrews chapter 12 where it speaks of the heavenly cloud of witnesses.
[56:55] I believe those are kind of a combination, right? So you have the saints who have went before and you have the angels that are looking into.
[57:07] Some people will tell you it's strictly just the angels. I don't think that it kind of goes to that because you're following that with Hebrews chapter 11, right? You're speaking of literal people.
[57:18] So I think the great cloud of witnesses and also the saints and those Old Testament saints who went before that are observant. And we find that elsewhere in Scripture that those who went before are observant of what is going on among the people of God today.
[57:40] Anyone else? Yes, ma'am. I have a couple of children that made a profession of faith, but they're not serving God right now.
[57:51] and I don't know if they're saved. You know, I don't know.
[58:05] I don't know. So I'm wondering if they are and they're just so backslidden that they're not living for God or they're just not saved.
[58:16] and I pray for them all the time, but I don't know. Right.
[58:27] Those are questions I wish I could answer. I lived in a false pretense of assurance of salvation for a number of years before I came to Christ. I had made a decision, quote unquote, and went through some actions.
[58:43] But ultimately, we don't know the heart. with me in my place and I don't mean this in a bad way. I think one of the greatest injustices the church ever does is twofold. I had this discussion with someone not too long ago.
[58:57] Number one, I think the church is very unfair when it gives false assurance where assurance shouldn't be. And you give false assurance by just convincing someone that if they recite this, and I don't want to say, you can come to faith by reciting a prayer.
[59:13] I don't want to say you can't. I think we give false assurance where assurance should be or shouldn't be without really pointing them to a biblical salvation.
[59:24] The second injustice that I think the church does is when someone genuinely repents and believes Jesus Christ and the church fails to disciple. Because by failing to disciple and really teach the things of God, we're setting people up for backsliding backsliding and failing.
[59:42] And that's really the grand problem of the church. And that is where the church has to say honestly, the blood of those people is on our hands.
[59:58] because we failed to point to true biblical salvation or we failed to raise up in discipleship.
[60:10] In scripture, we have to say this word that can be balanced out perfect.
[60:21] We encounter moments of salvation. Instantaneous moment. The Ethiopian eunuch.
[60:32] You know, Philip, met him on the road. The Philippian jailer. There are moments of salvation. There are people who cry out to the Lord and just Peter or Paul is preaching and he sees a man who has faith to be saved and he's saved.
[60:47] He has faith to be healed. We see those moments. But really, the bulk of scripture is giving to the responsibility of the church to raise up saved individuals through ongoing discipleship.
[61:04] The Great Commission was not to go and make people who pray their prayer. The Great Commission was to go and make disciples. Right? And what we see is salvation being so much more than a point in time in history or an event as to a daily reality that's being fostered with relationship with the saints.
[61:24] And I think it's one of the I mean, I got people in my own life. I've preached funerals of people that I had interaction with, people I had in the youth group, people I knew that I would like to say, well, I wish I knew, but I couldn't.
[61:43] and it breaks my heart every time. It causes me to lay away. And I guess I wish I could give an easy answer. I've got so many people in my own life. And so the challenge that I ask people when I'm talking to people, maybe they're doubting their salvation, I don't ever ask with me, were you saved?
[62:10] I ask them, today are you trusting Jesus Christ for all your life and all your eternity and are you living as a saved individual today?
[62:23] Because it brings the reality that if in the past salvation was genuine, it's going to affect today's outcome. And you don't have to tell me when you were saved, I just need to know, are you today?
[62:36] And the when can be played out in eternity. And we see that all throughout scripture. That's why it encourages me to be faithful.
[62:50] I mean, the Holy Spirit encourages me to be faithful, but I don't want to ever be a stumbling block for death if I'm not faithful.
[63:06] It takes some time just to go for that. any other questions? Any other questions?
[63:19] And I'll tell you in pastoral ministry, pastoral ministry, I'll just tell you this is a side note. It is much easier to go to a place where nobody's ever heard the gospel.
[63:33] I don't say easy, easy is the wrong word. in some aspects. It is easier to start fresh.
[63:48] And the reason we see new church plants baptizing so many more people than existing churches is because it's all new. They've never heard it. They're not standing in X amount of years of false assurance.
[64:02] They're not standing in X amount of years of well, I've been going to this church since I've been X years old. I'm okay. I give to this church. I got a pew named after me in this church. They don't have all that.
[64:13] Those things are good. I'm not saying it's bad. I don't want anybody to ever say that. but the appeal to a lot of pastors is I'm going to go start new. Because it's hard work.
[64:25] I mean, it's hard. It's hard. I mean, I wish I could convey the sense that the first Sunday I got, the first Sunday I stood up in front of a 150-year-old church to preach, I was like, oh, no.
[64:40] Not because of anything bad. It's just because I knew this church has such a history I had no idea about. And I didn't know how to speak to that. I didn't just preach the Bible.
[64:50] I still don't. I'm just to go to the word and let the Lord deal. But those are challenges in everybody's life. Any other questions?
[65:03] I know I need to wrap up. Any other questions? One more question. Anybody? All right.
[65:14] Let me pray with you. We'll be dismissed as a school night. Let's pray. Join our hearts together for Miss Rebecca's children. I know there are other family members. Let's pray for them. God, thank you so much for this evening.
[65:27] I thank you, God, for our brothers and sisters in Christ. I thank you for their desire to be in the word. I thank you for the things I've learned tonight from them. I thank you for speaking to my heart and my mind in this fellowship together.
[65:42] I thank you that we can come in all transparency and all honesty and all of our weaknesses and all of our failures and just look at the word of God with one another. Lord, I know salvation is a mighty work of the Holy Spirit.
[65:59] It's a work of wondrous matters. the word tells us that you draw men to yourself. You reveal to them the Savior.
[66:10] Lord, I also know that you give us a part and a portion in them. So, God, I pray as a church we be faithful. We be faithful to the Lord clearly declare the word of God.
[66:24] That we would be faithful to disciple the people of God. Lord, that we as your people would walk in a present reality of salvation each and every day. I pray for what I'm sure is a great number of family members that are represented in this room.
[66:45] Lord, there's uncertainty. There's concern. Lord, there's a longing to have an assurance. So, Lord, I pray as you give us an opportunity that we would be bold witnesses!
[66:57] We give us an opportunity that we would be bold witnesses in our words and our conduct. But, Lord, greater than that, we pray that you would draw these individuals to yourself. We pray that you would foster in them a love for the Savior like they've never had.
[67:11] That you would give them a desire for the Word of God. That you would help them not to follow the teaching of man, but it would be the Word of God that would draw them, mature them, and encourage them.
[67:27] Pray for salvation for our loved ones. Pray for assurance for those that we don't know. God, I just ask that you would help us to be those tools in your hand, and Lord, help us to walk hand in hand with you each and every day that we may be used by you in a greater way.
[67:47] Lord, we love you, and we thank you so much for your mercy, your kindness, and your goodness to us. Walk with us as we leave here, be glorified in all we do, and we ask it in Jesus' name.
[68:01] Amen. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate your time. So thankful for it, and respecter of it.